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Topic: Libya and Lockerbie... (Read 842 times) |
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Herodotus
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #1 on: Aug 17th, 2003, 7:52pm » |
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Probably... but, not for the families I'd imagine. Qaddafi needs to be dragged before a court and tried for along side all the other Libyans involved in the bombing of the Pan-Am Flight.
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"We should have contained Saddam. Well, we got rid of him. I suppose that's a good thing." -- Howard Dean
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DAB
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #2 on: Aug 19th, 2003, 5:32pm » |
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Clossure for some, just remember that Lockabie wasn't the only time a commercial airlinner was brought down by Lybia.
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If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, then he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
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Antiwilsonian
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #3 on: Aug 19th, 2003, 10:24pm » |
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on Aug 17th, 2003, 7:52pm, Herodotus wrote:| Probably... but, not for the families I'd imagine. Qaddafi needs to be dragged before a court and tried for along side all the other Libyans involved in the bombing of the Pan-Am Flight. |
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Heck, we agree on something. Were I president any time after the Lockerbie incident, bringing Gadaffi to justice would have been my first foreign policy priority. How can anyone justify Powell putting pressure on France not to stand in the way of lifting the Un sanctions ( http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=3CF19E65-9A65-4CF5-B4AFF3453873D845 )?
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Throughout the world, the flags of freedom are replacing the flags of empire. The motto, "never start a fight but always finish it" should apply to national defense since the aggressor eventually loses.
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Freedom
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Teddy
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #4 on: Aug 20th, 2003, 1:39pm » |
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I am looking at timeline of the Libyan investigation. It is clear it took several years for the international community to figure out who did it, and it seems the process of bringing the Libyan suspects to justice and Libya itself began during the months leading up to the Gulf War.
Also, despite the tragic nature of this event terrorism was still viewed in a different light before 9/11 than after.
I don't think you would have done anything different.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 20th, 2003, 1:41pm by Freedom » |
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Antiwilsonian
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #5 on: Aug 20th, 2003, 7:38pm » |
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on Aug 20th, 2003, 1:39pm, Freedom wrote:I am looking at timeline of the Libyan investigation. It is clear it took several years for the international community to figure out who did it, and it seems the process of bringing the Libyan suspects to justice and Libya itself began during the months leading up to the Gulf War.
Also, despite the tragic nature of this event terrorism was still viewed in a different light before 9/11 than after.
I don't think you would have done anything different. |
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My views did not change with 9-11 and I had been arguing for years before that that the US should find those responsible for Lockerbie and do whatever is necessary to bring them to justice. Furthermore, I was not surprised by 9-11. Osama bin Laden had made it crystal clear that he was going to attack American interests w/o distinguishing between military and civilian targets. Prior to 9-11, American airport security was a bad joke, possibly the worst in the world. I had been expecting one of bin Laden's men to put a bomb on a commercial jet (as with Lockerbie), not fly into a building. However, given his prior rhetoric, his actions were not that surprising to me.
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Throughout the world, the flags of freedom are replacing the flags of empire. The motto, "never start a fight but always finish it" should apply to national defense since the aggressor eventually loses.
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Herodotus
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #6 on: Aug 20th, 2003, 8:34pm » |
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on Aug 19th, 2003, 10:24pm, Antiwilsonian wrote:
Were you not for going after Saddam Hussein and company? I forget.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 20th, 2003, 8:37pm by Herodotus » |
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"We should have contained Saddam. Well, we got rid of him. I suppose that's a good thing." -- Howard Dean
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Antiwilsonian
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #7 on: Aug 20th, 2003, 11:39pm » |
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on Aug 20th, 2003, 8:34pm, Herodotus wrote:| Were you not for going after Saddam Hussein and company? I forget. |
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I was not. Iraq never attacked the US and I have seen no proof of Iraq's link to terror. Libya, on the other hand, has attacked the US and has conducted heinous acts of terror.
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Throughout the world, the flags of freedom are replacing the flags of empire. The motto, "never start a fight but always finish it" should apply to national defense since the aggressor eventually loses.
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Herodotus
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #8 on: Aug 21st, 2003, 5:51pm » |
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So Saddam putting poets in jail for their poems and having womens' bodies violated by groups of men for their political views doesn't warrant him being dragged in front of a court or shot by a U.S. Army Ranger?
I understand your principled position, but jesus of nazareth Man, Saddam Hussein was like a million times more of Schmuck than the kooky Colonel.
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"We should have contained Saddam. Well, we got rid of him. I suppose that's a good thing." -- Howard Dean
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DAB
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #9 on: Aug 21st, 2003, 5:57pm » |
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on Aug 21st, 2003, 5:51pm, Herodotus wrote:| So Saddam putting poets in jail for their poems and having womens' bodies violated by groups of men for their political views doesn't warrant him being dragged in front of a court |
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Yes it does
Quote:or shot by a U.S. Army Ranger?
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No it doesn't
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| « Last Edit: Aug 21st, 2003, 5:58pm by DAB » |
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If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, then he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
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DAB
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To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli (1804–1881)
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #10 on: Aug 21st, 2003, 6:06pm » |
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I was in Lockabie the other week actually...all the scars have been cleared - it could be any Scottish town, but the atmosphere is still there.
It is impossible to suggest that one tyrennts atrosities are somehow less then anouthers. Each case is unique and I think that trying to compare one to anouther almost belittles such events.
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If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, then he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
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Antiwilsonian
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #11 on: Aug 21st, 2003, 7:48pm » |
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on Aug 21st, 2003, 5:51pm, Herodotus wrote:| So Saddam putting poets in jail for their poems and having womens' bodies violated |
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Assuming this is true, how can you say it is a million times worse that blowing a jumbo jet, full of innocent civilians, out of the sky? I cannot think of anything more heinous or cowardly than the latter. That sorry specimen (Gadaffi) deserves to be roasted to death over a slow fire.
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Throughout the world, the flags of freedom are replacing the flags of empire. The motto, "never start a fight but always finish it" should apply to national defense since the aggressor eventually loses.
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Herodotus
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Shotgun is always angry and full of hate
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #12 on: Aug 21st, 2003, 7:49pm » |
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on Aug 21st, 2003, 5:57pm, DAB wrote:
Welshy,
You know, Saddam, just like his insect infested sons may not want to go peacefully forcing the U.S. Army Ranger to shoot a tow missile into his chest, thereby ripping his body into many pieces in one spectacular moment.
We should arrest him if we can, if we can't... we kill him.
Justice will be served either way.
Also... I'm sorry, but Saddam Hussein was a hell of a lot worse then Qaddafi. Blowing up a commercial airliner is very, very bad... but, Saddam murdered THOUSANDS of people. Noting this fact does NOT belittle Qaddafi's crime. The point of me even saying that was the fact that Anti-wilsonian would have Qaddafi dragged before a court first and Saddam second or not at all since Saddam hadn't killed any Americans or tried to in the past few years, which does not seem right in light of what the two of them have done.
What does it say to try the guy who brought down the airliner, but not to try the guy who gassed whole villages and who till just a few months ago had women gang-raped for their political views?
It says we suck as human beings, doesn't it?
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| « Last Edit: Aug 21st, 2003, 7:53pm by Herodotus » |
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"We should have contained Saddam. Well, we got rid of him. I suppose that's a good thing." -- Howard Dean
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Antiwilsonian
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #13 on: Aug 22nd, 2003, 1:20pm » |
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on Aug 21st, 2003, 7:49pm, Herodotus wrote:Also... I'm sorry, but Saddam Hussein was a hell of a lot worse then Qaddafi. Blowing up a commercial airliner is very, very bad... but, Saddam murdered THOUSANDS of people. Noting this fact does NOT belittle Qaddafi's crime. The point of me even saying that was the fact that Anti-wilsonian would have Qaddafi dragged before a court first and Saddam second or not at all since Saddam hadn't killed any Americans or tried to in the past few years, which does not seem right in light of what the two of them have done.
What does it say to try the guy who brought down the airliner, but not to try the guy who gassed whole villages and who till just a few months ago had women gang-raped for their political views?
It says we suck as human beings, doesn't it? |
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If you are just going by numbers, you could argue that Truman was worse than bin Laden. There are excesses in war time. Look at Dresden (http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm , http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm ) and My Lai ( http://www.nv.cc.va.us/home/nvsageh/Hist277/DanielFiles/My_Lai.html ).
Also, Gadaffi did more than blow up Pan Am 103 and a UTA DC10 the following year (despicable enough as these ections were). He also used napalm on Chadians during his gratuitous invasion of Chad in 1983 ( http://cbw.sipri.se/cbw/003060000.html ). Unlike Saddam, he was not fighting an insurgency against his govt. This was a gratuitous act of aggression. To say that Saddam is much worse than Gadaffi may be politically correct but it is not supported by the facts.
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Throughout the world, the flags of freedom are replacing the flags of empire. The motto, "never start a fight but always finish it" should apply to national defense since the aggressor eventually loses.
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Freedom
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Teddy
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Re: Libya and Lockerbie...
« Reply #14 on: Aug 22nd, 2003, 2:49pm » |
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I do not believe the American public, nor the world community would have supported an invasion of any country associated with terrorism prior to 9/11.
9/11 brought to the world's attention the prospect of cataclysmic destruction by terrorist groups.
Before 9/11 terrorism was seen by the world community as a criminal-like problem much more like murder, theft, and kidnapping. It was also thought that terrorism could be solved using conventional crime fighting organizations like police and the FBI.
Furtheremore, prior to 9/11 there was NEVER any international consensus or any national conensus on what to do about terrorism. European governments routinely caved in to terrorist demands (Palestinian in particular) and sacrificed long term security for short term alleviation of terrorist threats.
After 9/11 it became apparant to most people, even Kadaffi. that terrorism would no longer be tolerated.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2003, 2:51pm by Freedom » |
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